Ingineers Ramblings

Ingineer . . The media insists that the Israelis can do nothing right. Good Gravy Gravel Gertie, are they all anti-Semites?

This tiny little spot on the map, with it's tiny little population of citizens, is expected by them to smile and wave happily as Scuds and munitions are gleefully shipped into Gaza - where they will be, peacefully of course, employed to maim and murder more Israelis.

Have the inmates taken over the looney bin? And where is the mighty support of America and the rest of the free world? Oh, I forgot, they are at the party for Paul McCartney at the White House.

This Israeli blockade attempt to defend themselves is perfectly in order. America should send in a fleet and help the Israelis instead of pandering to the radical Muslim morons.

Bump
 

Yes Bump we wont even stand up to the North Koreans right now. We are expecting China to take care of it. I guess Obama really does want to not be a Super Power he wants to relegate it to China.

What if there were missiles being fired into shopping malls in San Diego from Tijuana? Do you think we would just stand by and let it happen? We would occupy TJ faster than you can say "What border check point".

I wish somebody would ask the Turks what they would do if a bunch of ships brought supplies to the Kurd rebels in Turkey what would their response be?
 

The issue you should explore on Israel is what they are blockading from Gaza. Nobody would argue about the need to stop arms and bomb making supplies, but seeds, cloth, notepaper? Is the purpose to prevent the Palestinians from attacking them or to punish them for voting in Hamas? I see their right to have a blockade of dangerous materials but it seems they are trying to turn Gaza into a concentration camp. Will that work well? And if Iran decides to accompany one of these ships, what will Israel do then? The stories of how they treated the activists need to also be explored as if they were brutalizing them, then they are becoming what they are fighting against. They need to have this openly investigated and as Andrew Sullivan suggested, show the whole footage of the attack to let others judge for themselves what went on. I have Jewish friends in the US and they don't all automatically defend what Israel does. It just needs to be looked at fairly. I don't think there is much doubt they were provoked, but does the blockade, as it currently is, help them or hurt them? Israel is not anymore incapable of doing wrong or making a mistake than we are. We should defend them when they are in the right but not do it without finding out the truth of what happened.
 

And ingineer, are you suggesting you want to have a war with North Korea now? Do you really think we can afford that and maybe take on China too if they get into the fray? It might come to that but what army were you planning to send? It always amazes me how right wingers talk so tough but then are against the taxes to pay for the tough talk...
 

I do not blindly defend Israel. They do plenty of things that I do not agree with or support. But in this case when almost the entire world is jumping on them, I think they should be defended. And I would hope the blockade was to stop Hamas from shooting missiles into Israel. Besides the reason Hamas won the election was because the people were so disgusted with Fatah after all the crap came out when Arafat died. The people found out how much money his family and friends have stolen from the Palestinian people there was no way the Fatah party was going to win that election. It was kind of like when Carter got elected. The people were so mad about the Watergate mess that a Republican had no chance of winning in 76.

On the Korean issue, I think we need to act strong and speak strong. If we keep acting like a paper tiger and keep showing the world that we do not have the stomach to actually back up what we used to believe in, then ever tin horn dictator is going to start throwing their weight around. Obama is projecting weakness to the world and the world is going to respond and not with the love and gumdrops that he told us about during the election.
 

I am not going to get into Obama with this as there is as much extreme hate of him as there was of Bush for 8 years and it stops people from looking at the issues. The issue is that for 2 years there has been a blockade of Gaza but of what? Was it really to stop bombs and missiles or to hurt the people there? How do you justify blocking cloth from coming in but not clothing? I get the feeling it was about making the people into prisoners who could do nothing to take care of themselves. Notepaper should be blocked? Livestock and seed to keep them from producing their own food? Look at the blockade itself as perhaps it's desperation over it that has led to this. There had to be a way to stop the weapons without stopping basic supplies needed to create a life. I think they had every right to block weapons and bomb making supplies but after assuring themselves that wasn't there, what justified stopping the rest? Most of us didn't know much about the blockade until now... And if Iran does escort a ship and is attacked, do we have the resources to take on another war right now? Let's get beyond idealism here (and I actually have a blog coming up that hits on idealism as a problem for both sides in this country) and get to the practicality of this situation. What can the US do and what should Israel do about blockading basic living supplies? Was it really innocent and connected to their survival (which they have every right to do) what they have been blocking for two years?
 

As for talking tough, you should vote for Palin next time. Not sure what she'll back it up with but she loves that talk too. Me, I love talk that is realistic and deals with what we can do something about. We might go to war with North Korea but doing it off 'tough' talk that ends up with us in a war we could have avoided, sorry but not one I want to see. Wars should be last resorts but for too many years recently they have not been. With our military stretched thin, China behind North Korea, exactly what did you want besides a lot of bluster?

Oh and I just read an article about super powers and whether the US should want to be one. Not by Obama incidentally. The gist was we never did want that and is it really wise to want it today? Can we afford it? Should we instead take care of our own interests which are expensive enough in terms of blood and dollars. North Korea might end up one of them but we sure shouldn't welcome it like some gladiator show that we can fight with no cost. You know that as well as anybody with children in the military. We should only put our kids at risk when it's the last resort, not the first. And I am no pacifist but I also am not an idealist. I want to count the cost and then do only what we must do.
 

Rain-
You seem to be justifying the use of Katusa rockets on Israeli women and children.
Ever have a rocket come down on your head?
I have.
Believe me, it'll make you soil yourself.
I cannot believe you are defending that.
 

Don't believe it because it's not what I said. What I said was the blockade involved a lot of things that were not possibly war weapons. Potato chips? which have just been allowed. A lot of it was just to punish. Can you deny that? And what good did it do? The blockade should have stuck to things that were potentially dangerous. Stopping kids from having note paper didn't make sense and fortunately it is being rethought.
 

The Israelis certainly made mistakes.
Boarding at night was a mistake.
There is a question as to whether or not they were in International waters.
I hope they don't make those mistakes again.
They made other mistakes:
-They had only paint-ball guns and sidearms as weapons. Those were obviously ineffective against the knives, pipes, and rifles that were used against them by the "peace lovers", so things got out of control and, unfortunately, people died.
(But I'm sure by now you've seen the photos of wounded Israeli troops that Reuters cropped so they could lie about this incident, haven't you?)
-They rappelled one-by-one onto the ship and were unable to defend one another against the brutal onslaught.
The "peace lovers" knew exactly what they were doing and succeeded in drawing the Israelis into a trap.

But make no mistake rain, like Obama, these people will tell a lie with a straight face because their belief system allows it...
"Al Taqqiya" they call it.
We simply cannot take them at their word that all they will transport to Gaza is "notebooks and staplers".
It is their intention to destroy Israel.
And your attitude is helping kill innocents, which, knowing your political views by now, surprises me not at all.
 

I won't let you put guilt of such a thing onto me. What I said and am saying is that the blockade of innocent materials such as potato chips (which the Israelis have admitted they did and are changing) only made people there angrier and left the Israelis in a weakened moral position. I did NOT say a blockade was wrong but the question should be of what. So they only allow in humanitarian aid which means charity and keep the people there weak and unable to earn a living and for what is that again?

AND the idea that you would blame me for something that isn't my idea, that I knew nothing about is typical right wing rhetoric and is why it's so pointless to talk to someone like you. You don't deal with the issue which is what the blockade was intended to stop from Gaza and you do attack me for something I had nothing to do. You see a world so different from mine that it's impossible to discuss anything and it's why I so rarely do offer anything at a site like this one, even though ingineer is a friend, where I know everybody sees it differently.

I had hoped it could stick to the issue on this one which is the blockade and what it is trying to do but you don't discuss this and only are interested in attacking me for anything I say that doesn't fall lockstep into the position of the far right in this country.

One thing for you to think about though is what you'd have done if you'd been born in Gaza and see basic living tools kept from your people, things like seeds to grow food, seen your people treated like prisoners in what they had been told was their own country, what if you saw land they had been told would be theirs settled by others (stolen basically) when it was against the law of the others but the others did not stop it, what would you do? Would you sit there and take it or would you try to strike back?

What I think Israelis who want to see peace have tried to do is find a way to be as fair as they can and then when they have to strike, do it with deadly force. It's what I'd do if it was me. Be fair as possible, which doesn't mean blockading cloth but letting in clothing; and then when someone hits me, hit back at them but not kill innocent women and children for no reason other than revenge. I don't expect you to respond to this with anything but another attack at me personally because it's what always happens. The right constantly portrays anyone who disagrees as the enemy also, as responsible for all bad things. So does that make the right the current ones polluting the Gulf?

As I see it, Israelis are not all wrong but they are not all right either and the main issue is the blockade and maybe the settlements in disputed territory that Israel had originally promised to stop but now doesn't dare to do anything about for political reasons in their own country. I am sure to Palestinians, even those who want peace, it looks like an act of war. I should know better than to discuss things here though as it's a losing game for me as I don't like being insulted. Glad you are back ingineer and good luck with it but it's not worth being told I coddle killers to post something when everybody here is of a similar mind anyway and won't change based on what I say.
 

AND to be sure I make myself clear. I do not see the blockade as being wrong but only question whether what they stopped helped them. I also have not condemned Israel for what they did on the ship although I do see it as a good idea that it be investigated fully and all the photos put out there (whatever side they might favor) and have never written about any of this publicly, before or after this, as I see as a complex issue and one that the countries over there need to work out. What I do think though is that if Iran escorts one of those ships, if the Israelis fire on it, then the Middle East goes to war at a time the US doesn't have the money or resources to fight another war where our own country is in trouble on many fronts not the least of which is employment that isn't government. The Israelis cannot take on Iran by themselves unless they use nukes and if that happens, it starts something that will be destructive to a lot more than one country. I do see the Israelis as in a difficult situation; but I also think they can be right about those things that don't cost them and letting in seeds, notepaper, basic tools of making a good life doesn't cost them anyway I can think. It would have left them with the high road which I can't see any reason for denying oneself other than revenge. It likely will all blow up eventually whatever the case and if anybody thinks that will be good news, they don't pay much attention to the results of war.
 

Lots to comment on here. Let me start where I left off. I still think it is unfair how everyone is attacking Israel over the blockade. Yes some of the things on the list do not make sense, but other countries including Egypt backed it. I read an article this week that said one of the biggest supporters (albeit quietly) of the Gaza blockade was the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. There is a lot more going on here than just Israel versus Hamas. It does not always make the news but Israel actually works with Arabs in many low level situations. They are all stuck in a miserable little chunk of the world and they work together for their mutual survival.
 

Now that Israel has added more items to the list of what will be allowed in, Hamas has said that they will not allow the new items in. So it appears that Hamas is more willing to punish their own people to keep up the anti-Israel sentiment. Sounds a lot like Saddam and Ahmadinejad. Let their countrymen suffer so that they can try to get more power and fight the great Satan (US).
 

I am not looking to start any new wars, especially with my children and many of their friends on the tip of the spear. But we still need to project strength or the number of flies buzzing around us will continue to increase. And we would have plenty of money to be a superpower and do everything else domestically if we would quit pissing it all away on foo-foo feel good do nothing programs and get back to the basics of what a government should be doing. Our Nanny government leaders are trying to do everything but what the government should actually be providing. Which is national defense and control of our borders.
 

Hopefully the Palestinians will figure out that Hamas is not their friend. I think those who seek peace whether Jews or Muslims have much in common and the ones who seek to destroy need to be seen as the enemy of them both. It's unfortunate that humans are such sheep and so easily manipulated.
 

Peace, rain.
One thing we all can agree on.
Now do this:
Ask the Jews if the Palestinians have the right to survive and thrive.
Then ask the same question of the Palestinians.

If we truly want peace we need to pay attention to the answers to those questions, don't we?
Stop aiding and abetting those that kill innocents!
 

Actually some Palestinians do want peace and hope for that. I have a Jewish friend who works on causes like that where Jewish women and Palestinian women do things to help bring about peace. I can't remember the name of the group right now but it is made up of those on both sides. It's not as though all Palestinians are the same anymore than all Jews.

And quit accusing me of doing anything to make this situation worse. First you don't know me and second I do not write about this or do anything to make it worse. Frankly I think going lockstep to assume that Israel always does right is as detrimental for peace as the opposite view. Treat Israel as you would any other people for judging what they do, and then you are likely to be right in your actions. Don't make them into saints or satans. Just look at what they do for where it is taking them. I did NOT say the blockade was wrong where it came to weapons. I just said there were many things they blocked that did them no good and won't help them get peace. Peace may not be possible in that region but only nutcases want anything but that. The question is how does a person get that in a region that is so filled with anger, hate and fear. There are a few people who do seem to want wars but they usually aren't the ones who fight them or who are in the regions where they are fought.
 

You voted for Obama rain.
I don't have to accuse you of a damn thing.
Thanks for giving me the chance to say that.
 

Hey folks. Let's try to keep it civil here. I like debate and even arguing but we don't need to get out of hand.
 

I'm watching my world come crashing down around my ears because some Chicago thug thinks emergencies are "a terrible thing to waste" and I'm expected to remain civil while others aid and abet our enemies?
How could ANYONE vote for a guy with friends like Bill Ayers, Tony Rezko, Jeremiah Wright, Rahm Emmanuel, Richard Daley, and Rashid Khalidi?!!
How is anyone surprised at Obama's anti-Israel stance with friends like Khalidi, Wright, and Farrakhan?
I'm sorry.
Civility is mighty difficult for me to conjure up right now.
Delete this if you want, Ingineer, but I'm tired of dealing with what, at best, MUST be naivete beyond belief.
 

Never again.