Read today they found the guy cold and dead. 52 years old and experienced climber. Was posing for pictures on top of the unstable rim. IQ = 30.
 

Your thoughts...
Who'd he vote for in the last election?
 

Well he will not be voting any more. He was backing up for a photo?! Apparently mountain experience and mountain smarts do not always go hand in hand.
 

here's the man you two are ridiculing. http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/body-of-climber-joseph-bohlig-recovered-from-mount-st-helens-crater/19361053

You know nothing about him, his politics or his fatal mistake. You deserve no compassion for your own mistakes (and everybody makes them) with the attitude you have. Looking at the guy and his friend, he might well have been a loyal republican voter. Does that change anything about the loss?

And ingineer, they don't risk their lives to bring these people down. He may well have died because of that wait but they made the right decision to not risk more lives. That particular climb wasn't a bad time to do it as in good weather (I've seen them where it was terrible judgment). It was just a bad mistake that maybe a very good man made. You on the right deserve the leaders you have.

The worst rescue I have personally observed was the Grand Canyon where a woman had earlier leaped. We saw the helicopters trying to retrieve the body and it was windy. That rescue was about the politics of a vacation place and not leaving a body to rot and disturb paying customers. I felt it was too bad they didn't leave her there as she purposely did what she did right where everybody would see her. No word on whether she was a democrat...
 

Ingineer . . . I think Rain is determined to be wrong. Wish I knew why. I admit that my last comment (IQ=30) was below the belt, but I sure don't care a fig about his politics, or why he elected to stand so close to a ridge he knew to be unstable, or whether he beat his wife, or whether he disturbed paying customers, or whatever. The guy made a mistake and paid for it. It happened whether he was a good man or not. Why in the world would Rain think if he was a Republican neither you nor I would have said a word?
 

Come on Rain, you are a little harsh here. Yes St. Helens is not quite the same as Mt. Hood. But I have seen the video of Air Force Helicopter crashing down the side of Mt. Hood in the middle of winter trying to rescue stupid people that go themselves into trouble at a time of year that nobody has a reason to go up there. This is an El Nino year which means we get large snow storms in a cycle with warm rain and sun. This leads to extreme avalanche danger and is no time to be standing on or under a cornice of snow. If this guy was so experienced he should know that. I have never climbed a mountain in the winter other than on a chairlift and I know that.

PS if the person is dead then it is not a rescue, it is a body recovery and in many cases a helicopter is not the proper resource for a body recovery. People on foot can normally do an adequate job for that task because there is no time requirement to get them out. I do not know the details of your Grand Canyon fiasco, but it sounds like somebody made a bad decision.
 

suicide is always a bad decision and i felt like if she wanted to do it, she should have done it where her body could not be seen and not endanger the others who had to bring it up.

In the case of this hiker, if you read the details, it had nothing to do with weather. That incident was awhile back with some people who flew in from Texas on a climb they had planned but the weather turned terrible. They never should have gone up but they had made their plans and stuck to them. And I agreed with your point that nobody should be rescued when it endangers others which is the choice they made this time.

This guy made a 'mistake.' You ever made one of those? He did something they say never to do and maybe any other day he'd not have done it but it does not make him an Obama fan as your other two suggested. They use every chance to put down people like me and this time it really irked me as this man died. His father is grieving it. His family lost him but it was not like a risky time to climb. It was fine weather and the accident was because he made a dumb mistake.

Incidentally, he was alive when he landed. He was able to blow the whistle to let his partner know. They will figure out whether he died that night of injuries or the cold. The rescuers were wise to not go after him when it endangered their lives. But it doesn't make him stupid. it makes him a man who made an error that cost him his life. If you looked at his friend and him, I see no reason to assume he was a democrat and that was what irked me so much.

I read your blog because you put out reasonable opinions from the right. That was not the snideness I saw from either bumps stump or graybeard. IF you put out the kind of thing they do, I'd not be reading your blog either. I don't need chosen aggravation.
 

Yes, my point was snide.
That was intentional.
I'm sick to death of saving those with no common sense.
I'm sick to death of rewarding idiot behavior.
I work in this field and am regularly asked to risk my life to save others who take unnecessary risks or abuse their own bodies and then EXPECT others to come rescue them.
We cannot afford it anymore, and that's becoming more and more obvious.

In your words, Ingineer:
" What is the deal with these people that go mountain climbing in the middle of winter? I say if you are dumb enough to climb a snow covered mountain in the Pacific Northwest between Thanksgiving and Easter then good luck."

I couldn't agree more.
Thanks for those words.
Darwin, where are you?
 

graybeard, I respect what you do. What I am saying is that in this case, they didn't risk their lives. They let him go, and he probably would have expected no less. He didn't die because of a storm. We are having a particularly mild winter here in the NW. It was over 60 here today and no rain for awhile. The guy just made a dumb mistake. He's not the equivalent of what happened earlier when the party from Texas went up on Mt. Hood when it was snowing.

I know those who work on horse rescue teams, not for mountain climbers but hikers who get lost and they just go out no matter what the situation. They are usually volunteers and are paid nothing. Sometimes they go out and they never do find the body (that happened out of Sedona) but they go. It is admirable and they do put their lives at risk. They should not go out when it's risky to do so. In the case of the St. Helens guy, they didn't go out when it was dangerous which was the right choice.
 

Imagineer . . . I seem to have offended Rain once more and I'm sorry. She is a nice person and a very dedicated liberal Democrat.

I get a smidge irked when she says Mr. Obama's hangnail is Bushes fault. . . So she's certainly entitled to get irked with some of my own ridiculous expressions.

Unfortunately this time I plead not guilty. At least almost not. I made no hint or innuendo about politics. NONE. Greybeard made a kind of sideways comment about the victim's voting, but I fail to see that either he or I had any conceivable thought about "using any incident to put me (Rain) down". It just didn't happen.

We do see things differently. Even when a guy makes a mistake. Isn't debate and controversy more interesting than pablum?

For the record, I'll bet I make more mistakes than you and Rain and Greybeard together. How's that for conflict resolution?
 

..."spotted the climber on a steep slope near the bottom of the crater but was unable to pick him up because of high winds and whiteout conditions."

This wasn't a Sunday stroll, rain.
 

:) bumps stump. I make plenty of mistakes but wouldn't make a mistake about a cliff like that guy did as I am afraid of heights. I stay way back from edges and even the Grand Canyon is hard for me to visit anymore. I am married to a man though who goes right over to the edge which drive me nuts. I think some of me is age as I don't remember it being this bad when I was younger although I'd never have been a climber as adrenaline is not my drug of choice. People can though need rescue after doing pretty innocuous things. That guy who got lost in Sedona area, he evidently just got off the trail. My friend, the one who does horse rescue, had the belief a bear got his body :(
 

Rain, I may owe you an apology.
Re-reading your comments, I see you were talking about different rescues, one of which was a suicide.
I was concentrating on the guy who fell when he should not have been taking that risk. I shoulda been paying more attention. I'm sorry.

Like Bumps, you puzzle me.
You're obviously intelligent. You also apparently have heart as big as all outdoors. But so long as you continue to vote for people who will reward the "Peggy Josephs" of the world, you are doing the entire world a disfavor.
Like Bumps, I'm continually shaking my head at how someone so insightful in most things cannot see the basics of Psy 101...
You get more of what you postitively reinforce, so be careful about your rewards.

It's trite but true-
Suicide is, with some exceptions, a permanent resolution to a temporary problem. I'm sorry to hear about the gal who "offed" herself in the Canyon, but you cannot expect someone who is mentally ill to consider the feelings of others, or the dangers rescuing her body would expose others to.
Sad... and I see the result of failed attempts ALL THE TIME, believe me.
 

I have the same problem, graybeard. I look at very nice people, who are intelligent and wonder how they can support the republican party and the fascism I see in it. I don't though blanket okay whatever Obama does and time will tell what I feel about his term as a president or even if I vote for him again. Right now I am not happy with either party. But i see that where we are today has more to do with the last eight years than it does the last one year.

I try to live my life responsibly and vote with my best intellect but it's clear that doesn't automatically make people see it the same way. I worry about our country and am just not sure we can fix any of it :(

Even though I am trying to avoid politics in my blog, I will be writing on the subject of global climate change in two days and will take some swipes at Republicans, but it does not mean I think the democrats are doing wise things either right now. Carbon credits made no sense to me. I see that some of the left are just being destructive where it comes to using the environment as a hammer on productivity; but it's not so simple as just say we can ignore whatever man is doing or assume all corporations are behaving responsibly. What I would rather see is more science where nobody has an ax to grind. That appears to be hard to come across-- on either side but I think climate change, especially the warming of the oceans is a major problem potentially and our country should be doing things to get ready for it and yet we have a deteriorating infrastructure, gave up big tax cuts to the richest and fought (and are fighting) two wars that may make no difference in our safety or have any logic at all. We started 2000 with a big surplus and we all know where we ended it. We have taken our resources and lost them but still face a big problem with Iran and North Korea.

What you just said is the problem right and left have. We look at the same information and don't see the same thing. I don't know if it would be better if we sat down over a cup of coffee than it is here online or not. I know so many families that are being split by this opposing view of what is right to do :( It is very depressing which is why I rarely write about it right now. I want to build people up, not tear us all down. I don't enjoy arguing politics. I do like to discuss ideas and what ingineer brought up here about when rescue should be attempted is a viable topic that is worth talking about. We go nuts even sometimes to rescue an animal. Our priorities are out of whack. We can probably agree on that but then what do we do about it? That's where we'd differ.
 

Rain it is obvious what the right thing to do is. Everyone should listen to me and do what I say. Cracking myself up here. I look forward to your Global Cooling/Warming bad science blog.
 

Well I hope when you do that, ingineer, you take time with the links and the charts that go with them. This particular blog is full of links. Determining which is bad science might become more political than factual as in what someone wants to believe.
 

Rain said-
"Our priorities are out of whack. We can probably agree on that but then what do we do about it? That's where we'd differ."

Amen gal.
I truly believe we are about to experience a catastrophic economic collapse. I cannot predict if this will happen tomorrow, next month, next year, or in 10 years.
But if you are researching our debt and what has happened historically when others have gotten out onto this "thin ice", you'll be thinking about what you'll need when you can no longer depend on anyone but yourself.

We are BANKRUPT.
Much of the reason we are bankrupt is because we gave away the store to the above-mentioned Peggy Josephs of the world. Some of the Peggy Josephs truly needed help. Many of them had learned to play the system, have two kids, and play the system some more.
When the system collapses, those folks will be coming for your sheep and beef cattle, Rain.
Have that rifle close at hand.
 

I have to admit I have no idea who Peggy Joseph is but I know I keep a gun handy and loaded at all times. My dad, who died in 1980, said that someday we'd have a world of have and have-nots. When that day came, those who didn't have would attack those who did, shoot random strangers and the violence would not be easy to control. I hope we find a way to avoid that happening but guns and country living go together real well ;)
 

I had to look up who she was too, Rain. I thought maybe it was one of Obama's lame advisors. But she is the woman that was played all over the news on inauguration day saying that she would not have to worry about putting gas in her tank or paying her mortgage, because since she helped Obama get elected he would take care of her since he is black and she is black.

I will look at all your data on Climate Change and I am doing some pre-research too. I want to find backups for some of the things that I have heard about the so called facts of global warming and glaciers being gone in 25 years etc.
 

i remember her now. and ignorance is not the exclusive provenance of teabaggers.
 

Teabaggers?
You didn't really use that term did you rain?
 

well it's what they called themselves to start with and sent the teabags around. Can I help it if they didn't know what it meant? *s* As for me using it, I am an artist. Doesn't that mean a little bohemian goes with the territory... naturally of course with the democrat part too ;)
 

I have NEVER heard a "Tea Party" enthusiast refer to themselves with that term.
Radicals like Olbermann revel in using it. You should not.
 

They stopped using it when they found out what it meant. Since I have no respect for someone who refers to their president in racially derogatory terms (as many of their signs do), I don't feel a need to avoid the term. 'No taxes but rah rah for attacking Iran. Keep your hands off my Medicare and Social Security but I'm against all government programs.' The term arose when they wanted tea bags sent to congress people and yes, it shows their ignorance (I would not have known what it meant back then either). I consider their whole movement to be irresponsible. I can respect genuine conservative thinking but that means paying your bills, being responsible for what you pay for and what you ask for. Incidentally, here's where it fits into the urban dictionary-- "verb - An April 15 nationwide protest against President Obama heavily promoted by Fox News and largely restricted to small gatherings of angry white conservatives; the sponsors and participants presumably intended the term to be suggestive of the Boston Tea Party and appear to have been unaware that it also has a sexual meaning." Clearly that was how I was using it.

I see it as a negative movement and it's been around a long time (with different names). The guy who flew his plane into an IRS building in Austin was influenced by it. Years ago I heard the same kind of talk on a radio program in Idaho as I was driving through. It inspired Timothy McVey. It's not new but it doesn't deserve respect either. not as it currently stands.
 

After I wrote this, I came across this article, a reminder of the wingnuts on both fringes. [I have no respect for peta either or any of those environmental wacko groups] -- The roots of a texas suicide attack
 

Thanks Rain.
Now I realize why I gave up trying to reason with you before.
 

You can't reason with me, graybeard because when you hear how I think, it's not okay. It's always about agreeing with you and since I don't, you think I don't hear you. You probably see the extremists on the right as being patriots and I see them as trying to destroy this country. How anyone can listen to the tea 'party' movement and not see it as wingnut, is beyond me. How they can think it's not irresponsible and can lead to the guy who flew the plane into a building to kill innocents and not see that it's like what the 9/11 terrorists did. How can people like those at CPAC not realize when they defend such, they are also defending the Muslim extremists? I don't begin to understand. It is what I said earlier. We simply don't see the same world and I am not interested in being reasonable either given that the price of being considered broadminded is to condone what I consider as wrong.

I know that many on the right are good people but they are supporting something I consider far worse than something like health care for everybody. Where I am equally concerned about the deficit, I see it's going to take raising taxes to fix the problem and the right just says it can all be fixed by less tax revenues. They ignore the fact that Obama did lower taxes again in 2009 and what good has it done? Obama has tried to cooperate with the right and what good has it done any of us? it's likely why he'll end up a one-term president. And who the republican will put up is beyond me. Someone like Pawlenty who says it's good to break windows on vehicles to attack what they think as wrong?

I agree with you that the country is broken but where we differ is I see it as much the fault of the right as the left and you only see it being the left. There is no ability to reason with such thinking.
 

And I would say exactly the same thing about your words, graybeard. Although I don't see what I said as nasty and my husband (who I asked to read what I wrote last night) said I was being too nice, political communication with you is impossible which is why you and I don't go to each other's blog. I can't stand the hate you spew out (although I still make your aunt's cookie recipe and have given it to others) and you think the same about me.

Interestingly I rarely write about the politics but you never comment on anything else. Apparently you don't have interest in anything but something you can spew that anger back at -- and you never do deal with any of my facts like the guy who flew his plane into the IRS building being praised as a hero by some on the far right, like his long-term involvement in the anti-taxes movement. In your blog, did you condemn what he did, discourage anybody who reads your blog from using violent acts as a political method? If you did, then good, because you have those people reading and you might help the situation; but if you are saying things like you did in bumps stump's blog where you wrote after one of my comments that Obama was a Kenyan buffoon (and revealed yourself a birther), you are making it worse and part of what is causing the potential for violence which maybe you also cheer OR justify. IF you cannot see that to say using violence by tax protesters or those who don't like our government is the same as the extremist Muslims, you are blind to reality. What some in this country (and I do not know it's you) are doing is encouraging sedition which is an act of treason when it's not someone from another country. People like you said the Dixie Chicks to just say they didn't respect Bush was treason in a time of war, but now it's evidently okay. Same people, different president, movable ethics.

It appears to me that you were insulted when I said what I did about the 'tea-baggers' because you are one of them. I didn't know that before. I won't comment again after you here when it involves politics. It's not worth my time or yours. If ingineer likes the kind of thing you say here, it's after all his blog and he can run the comments. I have always believed we are responsible for the comments in our blogs and if we agree with them, fine but otherwise we need to speak up. It's not my place to do that for his blog. It can reflect what he wants.
 

Another post comment from Rain that is making my blood boil.

The term teabagger is FILTH Rain. The Tea Party did NOT start using the term and your continuation of such filthy terms is why people are so angry.

The Tea Party is not exclusive to a political party. It comprises a grass roots anger of ordinary citizens who are tired of Washington telling us they know better than we do. I can find you as many radical leftist that spout ignorant filth as you can idiots who might have attended a Tea Party with stupid racist signs. Unfortunately both sides of the political spectrum attract lunatics.

The amazing part is that I DO think we could be friends, that is until you call ME a teabagger, hater and Christianist. You are the one who turns a disagreement of beliefs into personal insults.

I have many friends that I disagree with on politics, abortion, religion. We are friends because we don't turn our disagreements into personal assaults.

Obviously you cannot be friends with someone who is Christian, believes abortion is murder and believes that the government should not be a nanny to people who are just lazy. Unless they liked being called nasty terms by their friends.

I'm done. You are right Greybeard, there is no reasoning with the radical left.
 

Ingineer: Back to the original subject....

When we visited the Grand Canyon several years ago, there was a short gate on the side of a cliff. On the other side was a sign. From reading it you could tell they were just tired of warning people not to get too close and it still wasn't helping.

The first three BIG words were....

"People Die Here".

And I still saw idiots cross the gate to get their pictures taken.
 

ingineer, I wanted you to know I won't be back to this site but it's not because I feel angry with you at anything. Mostly you and I can and have discussed politics many times. I am not interested though in talking about it to anybody from the far right. They don't understand me and I don't them. It just leads to upset feelings. If I come here, I'll comment and I don't need the hassle and I am sure your friends who comment here don't need it either. They need a place they can put out their thoughts without someone else dissenting. It does seem impossible to comment logically with each other. It's obvious I am not communicating well here with anybody and it's not like i have to come. I had wanted to support your site since I thought you put out a good one but it's not proving to be supportive...

I'd tell you this in an email, but I lost it when I lost all the rest of mine. That tidiness just did me in :) Anyway I wanted you to know. I hope you continue to visit and comment on my site but if you choose otherwise, I definitely will understand :)

As to what you said, Rita, I had said it all and you didn't understand me anymore than I do you. I wish you well but I won't try again to get through to you. I am not any more fond of being insulted than you are. I have not personally called you a christianist, a racist or any other insult. If you are any of those things, I don't know you well enough to judge. What i am saying is that is out there and when someone calls Obama a Kenyan buffoon, I don't think there's much room to communicate with anybody who doesn't agree.
 

No need to leave Ingineer's blog. You two have been friends for awhile, at least blog friends.

Obviously you and I will never be such friends. I am a Christian, a conservative and would gladly attend a Tea Party if one were held close and I did not have to work. I wish I were immune to feeling personally attacked when people call my beliefs horrible names, but alas, I am not. And maybe I don't want to be because that would mean I no longer care.

As I said, I am done. I'm done with reading your blog and I will refrain from ever commenting on Ingineer's again.

Thanks Ingineer for the interesting posts. I wish you and Rain the best.
 

Well I have been busy with my life plus fighting a miserable cold, so I have not made time to write on my blog or comment on Rains.

With all the comments on this post, I was starting to almost feel like a real blogger. But then my blog was pretty much put to death when 50% of the people that comment on it said they are not coming back. I guess I will take some time off from blogging or maybe post even more sporadically.
 

Ya know Ingineer, I've been to a couple sites and have seen you defend yourself against crazy thinking there...
(And in a considerate, sane way that I cannot seem to bring myself to display.)
Why not come back to blogging those thoughts here?
If we are gonna win this battle we have to educate those out there that have been spoon-fed the propagandist pap. Every voice is important.
Don't give up.
Fight!
 

Thanks Greybeard. That is very kind of you to say. If something gets me motivated enough I will post again. Right now there is so much going on with politics that infuriates me, I have sort of given up on talking about it.
 

Ingineer . . . I just received a copy of Greybeard's recent comment to you. See number 35. I too would like to see you return to your blog. Anytime soon will be okay.

Bump
 

Me Three. Even if I will refrain from commenting as somehow my arguments infuriate some of your readers.